The Dilemmas of Men and Women

A friend of mine recently posted this the following question on her blog. I have edited the entry for the purposes of this discussion, but feel free to read her entire blog entry if you wish.

blog.myspace.com/67937264: "I need something clarified for myself and my female friends by the males who read my blog. See, we women are trapped in a rather sticky predicament when it comes to dating: when is it ok to have sex with the guy?

Seriously guys, I know your initial answer is of course 'As Soon As Possible!' but I'm asking a legitimate question here.

See, for women, it's like this:

If we sleep with the guy too soon, we are put in a 'booty call' category and get no respect and guys don't take us seriously. In fact alot of guys don't even respect the girl as a person if she gives it up too soon, but they'll still sleep with her regardless, they just won't 'date' her.

If she waits too long the guy sometimes loses interest or thinks she isn't attracted to him or starts to feel like he's wasting his time and starts pursuing other women, etc.

Now, the guy usually, at least in my experience, begins pursuing the prospect of sex either on the first or second date. Either by trying to make those high school 'moves' like saying something sweet and leaning in for a kiss or something equally tasteful but nonetheless a step toward getting laid. And after the first kiss, most guys will make out with the female and take things as far as she will let him, especially if that means all the way. Am I right girls?

And unfortunately there is still that old double standard that if she gives it up too soon then she must do that will all the guys she's dated and therefore must be a ho.

The guy pursues sex almost immediately b/c that's probably what attracted him to the female in the first place and even if it's not that's what men are wired to do: mate. (Not that I blame them, hey everybody likes sex and the only people who don't are either virgins or haven't had good sex). However, if they succeed too soon then they don't respect the female. I guess they think 'wow, that was a little too easy. She must be easy.'

But, if they don't succeed they get pissy. Make a guy wait too long and he loses interest or starts seeing other women or both.

Which oddly enough is pretty close to what happens if he succeeds too soon.

Maybe I should know the answers here but I was raised by a single mother and my father never answered questions like this for me, we were not ever really close enough for me to feel comfortable even asking questions like this. I seriously want some sort of answer from every male who reads this blog. My fellow females do as well, they just don't have the balls (so to speak) to post such a question. However, I've discussed this on different occasions with alot of women and they all seem to be equally confused.

Now personally, so far, my attitude has been that if he is serious then he is serious and sex won't change that. However, looking back over things in the past I am inclined to think that perhaps I destroyed a few good things by making things physical too soon. Or at least a few hurtful situations could have been avoided had I not given in so easily to my hormonal desires. Which has recently (over the past year or so) lead me to start asking myself certain questions. This, being one of those particular questions. Maybe things still work the way they did 50 years ago. Maybe men really don't respect women who enjoy sex as much as they do....? You tell me, b/c sadly enough, I don't know.

***So my question for the men out there is: when is the right time? When is it ok to 'give it up'? Where's the line between too soon and too long? Is there a right time? If a guy likes a woman that much is he still going to like her an pursue her in a serious manner regardless? We women are very confused here.******

And now...here is the response I left in her comments:

I'm not really qualified to provide you with an answer, but I'll throw some additional muddy water into the mix.

Here is a dilemma faced by SOME men. There are some men out there whose ingrained respect for women causes them all kinds of problems in this area. They respect a woman's feelings and needs and don't want to push things. Unfortunately, if they wait to long to initiate physical contact, they get relegated very quickly into the woman's 'friend zone' from which there is no escape. These are generally known as the 'nice guys' who, in spite of their apparent lack of persistence, really are interested in sex, too. Many of them were also raised by single mothers and had limited relationships with their fathers. They've experienced their mother's grief in her relationships with men and don't want to be the kind of guy who would cause that kind of pain to a woman. So they do not assert their needs or desires onto their relationships with women. It is a little thing called 'nice guy syndrome' and it leads the man who suffers from it into a long life of loneliness and fruststration: he may have lots of friends, many of them female, but he rarely if ever enjoys a physical relationship with any of them. The only hope he has is to rely on the OTHER types of men out there (who seem vile to the 'nice guy') to teach him how to 'seduce women' or 'How To Be A Player' (or any number of other books and/or websites designed to help 'nice guys' break out of the 'syndrome')

Why do I bring this up? As I said, to muddy the waters of your dilemma all the more, of course. :)

I just find it fascinating that you women feel like you have this big dilemma, when from my perspective, you are the ones in complete control. But then, I suffer from the syndrome, don't I? To a guy with the syndrome, a woman deciding to have sex with him is a great gift. But women don't want to have sex with 'nice guys'. They want the other kind. The assertive, dominant kind. So here is my advice, based on what I've always heard all my life. Third date is the guideline. I would definitely say you should not sleep with a guy on the first date. Second date should solidify whether or not he's ONLY after sex, I'd guess. i.e. if you don't sleep with him after the second date (and I do mean a real date - nice restaurant, a show, etc) and he still asks you for a third, then there's a better chance that he's interested in YOU and not just in SEX WITH YOU.

Take that advice with a grain of salt, as it's just my own analysis of what I've heard, not my actual experience. Good luck."

So what's the point of all this? Well, as I indicated, my reality has always been that women are pretty much in the driver's seat when it comes to the question of sex. However, I've also known for a long time now that I suffer from the ravages of "nice guy syndrome". I have recently taken the bull by the horns on this issue and have started looking for a "cure" for this problem. So far the outlook has been fairly bleak, as I have very little respect for what I consider to be the "player" mentality of most of the books, websites and other resources that claim to offer solutions.

In any case, reading of this "dilemma" that apparently plagues women makes me wonder. I admire Stacy for her forthrightness in asking the question, and for some of the other points and admissions she makes in the full blog. But I find I have little sympathy for the problems of women who seek out the kind of men who have so little respect for women in the first place.

Sadly, I am coming to realize in my own journey that if I am to connect with women on a physical level, I must lose my inherant respect for them. As much as women seem to want to be respected by men, my experience has shown me that men with no respect for women get far better results than I do. And women ignore the respect that I offer them in favor of those men.

The fact is that women prattle on and on about wanting to find a "nice man" or a "respectful man" but what they MEAN is they want a "nice man who looks like Brad Pitt" or a "respectful man with a mansion on a hill". Being "nice" is meaningless if the man isn't good looking or highly successful or both. When I keep this in mind, it becomes a bit easier to chuck that unfounded respect I've been saddled with, doesn't it?

Of course it really isn't that easy or that clearcut. But I do hope that little example tirade has shown someone how frustrating my life has been. I've done everything I thought was right, but it's all been wrong. And as I approach my 40th year, I have to make some major changes.

It was never my intention for this blog to be a personal diary, but I just got carried away on a topic that obviously causes me a great deal of anguish, so if you've read this far, thanks.